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  1. Originally posted by redguitaronfire[..]

    I supposse it's easier to justify a bomb from the IRA than a social act?

    Are there excuses for bearing a rifle?

    Is it right to use the same violence your people has been under?

    I don't want you to answer. I just want to point Bono's action are protocol. If you think that's unspeakable you know less about Ireland than me even though you're there, let me tell you.



    Once again Redguitar you prove your total ignorance to the facts.

    Just check out how bad things were for Irish Catholic's, the IRA were the only people to stand up for them.

    It was out of Defense, if your country was invaded, your people occupied and yourself placed under police state rule, would you not support he men who fought against it.

    And don't you for one fucking second tell me that you know more about Ireland than me, you really don't have a clue, and the fact that you would even incinuate displays your toal ignorance.
  2. Originally posted by redguitaronfire[..]


    You're right, only the tip. Can you tell us more of what lies underwater? Tell us about how many people the IRA killed in the seventies. Or how many got imprisioned for their acts even if they had nothing to do with it. Or tell us, if you dare, that they deserved to get killed for something that hapenned in 1400.

    Tell us the whole story, because if you only can grieve for the victims on one side you're not speaking of justice, but vengeance.





    I can tell you the IRA killed half of what the UVF and UDA have done in the North of Ireland.

    "Or how many got imprisioned for their acts even if they had nothing to do with it"

    I'm not quite sure what you mmean by this, but if you mean the hunger strikers, they were the brave IRA men who starved to death in Protest.
    Or alternatively, you could mean innocent Catholics who got locked up under simple suspicion, this was Englands fault not the IRA's. Using 1984 tactics on the whole population is not ant-terrorist its Orwellian.

    So Redguitar, why not grieve for IRA families who lost soldier sons and daughters? Because you have been conditioned to put IRA under the word terrorist. When even the EU council decided they could no longer be referred to as terrorists, because they were working to protect their people, and now decomissioning for peace.

    And i do grieve for the other side. Many of my friends are on the 'other side' of the political divide, and they understand where i am coming from.
    I am a Christian, i see all life as equal.
    I see the death of a son, a daughter, a mother, a father as equal wherever of whenever in the world.
    But those who occupied Ireland do not, and that they think seems to justify their horrible, horrible crimes.

    Just like i'm sure you think its okay for Israel to bomb the life out of Palestine. And those who see to prtoect Palestine are (terrorists) when the real terrorists are the Israelis attacking innocent Palestinans, taking their land.
    Media tells people to believe one Blood class is worth more than the other, and you my friend seem to have bought into that.

    So forgive me, or not.

    But the IRA weren't cowards, they wouldn't let England walk all over them. They stood up for Catholics tormented under British rule. And whilst i admit some pretty grisly stuff was done, Ireland was non violent under occupation under the Easter Rising, (which set off a chain of events which led to the establishment of the republic, a republic won by the IRA, a republic with which there could be no U2")
    Non-violence in our case didn't work, but in India it did. Ireland set off a chain of events that would destroy a lot of a brutal facist British regime, and only morons would ever forget her great legacy.


  3. this thread is turning out to be quite the history lesson!


    if i had to give a foreigner a single example as to why the irish show hostility to the english goverment/crown i would use the story of the Gilford 4.
    for those of you who dont know who the gilford 4 are they were four young Irish people who were convicted of the bombing of a London pub on the basis of information fabricated by the british police.
    thats right FABRICATED by the british police.
    they just picked some unlucky irish guys who were in the wrong place at the wrong time - and convicted and imprisoned them just for being irish!
    when new proof was discovered that the police had fabricated evidence in order to convict the irish people the british government had to release them.
    but this is what gets me .......
    it was proven in a court of law that policemen had fabricated false evidence and lied under oath.
    not a single person from the british police was charged with any crime - not one!!!
    watch the movie "In The Name Of The Father" [starring a brilliant Daniel Day Lewis] to find out more about what im on about.

    didnt bono sing on the soundtrack to that movie????
  4. Originally posted by Macphistfly[..]
    Once again Redguitar you prove your total ignorance to the facts.

    Just check out how bad things were for Irish Catholic's, the IRA were the only people to stand up for them.

    It was out of Defense, if your country was invaded, your people occupied and yourself placed under police state rule, would you not support he men who fought against it.

    And don't you for one fucking second tell me that you know more about Ireland than me, you really don't have a clue, and the fact that you would even incinuate displays your toal ignorance.



    So you can justify violence but not a rock singer in a protocolary act. So, for you, violence is a patrotical act and Bono is an unspeakable traitor... In that case you're right, I don't know more about Ireland than you, I know more about anything than you.

    It's not enough to remember history, pal. You also gotta understand it.
  5. Originally posted by Macphistfly[..]

    I can tell you the IRA killed half of what the UVF and UDA have done in the North of Ireland.

    "Or how many got imprisioned for their acts even if they had nothing to do with it"

    I'm not quite sure what you mmean by this, but if you mean the hunger strikers, they were the brave IRA men who starved to death in Protest.
    Or alternatively, you could mean innocent Catholics who got locked up under simple suspicion, this was Englands fault not the IRA's. Using 1984 tactics on the whole population is not ant-terrorist its Orwellian.

    So Redguitar, why not grieve for IRA families who lost soldier sons and daughters? Because you have been conditioned to put IRA under the word terrorist. When even the EU council decided they could no longer be referred to as terrorists, because they were working to protect their people, and now decomissioning for peace.

    And i do grieve for the other side. Many of my friends are on the 'other side' of the political divide, and they understand where i am coming from.
    I am a Christian, i see all life as equal.
    I see the death of a son, a daughter, a mother, a father as equal wherever of whenever in the world.
    But those who occupied Ireland do not, and that they think seems to justify their horrible, horrible crimes.

    Just like i'm sure you think its okay for Israel to bomb the life out of Palestine. And those who see to prtoect Palestine are (terrorists) when the real terrorists are the Israelis attacking innocent Palestinans, taking their land.
    Media tells people to believe one Blood class is worth more than the other, and you my friend seem to have bought into that.

    So forgive me, or not.

    But the IRA weren't cowards, they wouldn't let England walk all over them. They stood up for Catholics tormented under British rule. And whilst i admit some pretty grisly stuff was done, Ireland was non violent under occupation under the Easter Rising, (which set off a chain of events which led to the establishment of the republic, a republic won by the IRA, a republic with which there could be no U2")
    Non-violence in our case didn't work, but in India it did. Ireland set off a chain of events that would destroy a lot of a brutal facist British regime, and only morons would ever forget her great legacy.





    Well, let's take it in order of appearance:

    1. I didn't reffer those "brave" strikers, neither Catholics you mention. I was thinking in people who died in acts like the bomb in Enniskillen, the episode Bono reffers in Rattle and Hum before Sunday Bloody Sunday, when he talks about the "Glory of the Revolution". Remember that or is it too undonfortable for the patriot apology of IRA you're trying?

    2. The EU council decided that, but the USA rate the IRA as terrorists in their list of terrorist groups. So the reliability of your argument is relative.

    3. Why not grieve for the IRA fallen? I do. Will you grieve for the british soldiers that have also lost their lives in their jobs? That's my point, watch this from both angles.

    4. Israel and Palestine situation is not comparable to Ireland. It's not only the land, but also religion differences and the USA intervention because of their interest in the area. If you think is comparable, or that it can be reduced to an invasion, you don't know the world you're living in.

    5. Do you think it was easier for India than for Ireland? Do you think there were not-so-many-violence-like in your hometown? The point here is when are you gonna give a try to non-violence?
  6. Originally posted by robbie07this thread is turning out to be quite the history lesson!


    if i had to give a foreigner a single example as to why the irish show hostility to the english goverment/crown i would use the story of the Gilford 4.
    for those of you who dont know who the gilford 4 are they were four young Irish people who were convicted of the bombing of a London pub on the basis of information fabricated by the british police.
    thats right FABRICATED by the british police.
    they just picked some unlucky irish guys who were in the wrong place at the wrong time - and convicted and imprisoned them just for being irish!
    when new proof was discovered that the police had fabricated evidence in order to convict the irish people the british government had to release them.
    but this is what gets me .......
    it was proven in a court of law that policemen had fabricated false evidence and lied under oath.
    not a single person from the british police was charged with any crime - not one!!!
    watch the movie "In The Name Of The Father" [starring a brilliant Daniel Day Lewis] to find out more about what im on about.

    didnt bono sing on the soundtrack to that movie????


    Exactly, he did. I'm glad you're the one who mentioned it. Do you really think someone who is aware of that story and participates in that movie is accepting his knighthood for ego reasons? If we were speaking about, let's say, Michael Jackson turning his back on the US it would make sense, because he has shown how much he hates to be who he is and how different wants to become. But guys, it's Bono. You're in your right to desagree whta he has done and I respect that, but it also has to be taken in count the man is smarter and more complex than the figure you're drawing. Super rock star ego is too simple in his case. And he has done things for which he deserves the benefit of doubt, ain't he?

  7. Originally posted by YogiRedGuitar


  8. Originally posted by redguitaronfire[..]

    Exactly, he did. I'm glad you're the one who mentioned it. Do you really think someone who is aware of that story and participates in that movie is accepting his knighthood for ego reasons? If we were speaking about, let's say, Michael Jackson turning his back on the US it would make sense, because he has shown how much he hates to be who he is and how different wants to become. But guys, it's Bono. You're in your right to desagree whta he has done and I respect that, but it also has to be taken in count the man is smarter and more complex than the figure you're drawing. Super rock star ego is too simple in his case. And he has done things for which he deserves the benefit of doubt, ain't he?




    your right bono IS a very smart and complex guy.
    but if his ego didnt accept this award why did accept it?
    did he accept it with an ironic smile? - because this is not a subject to be smart and ironic about.
    i mean, to say its an act of treason is a bit much [sorry macfistfly], but every single person who i spoke to about his knighthood have said they have lost their respect for him.
    id like to say i havent lost my repsect for him ... but i probobly have ....
  9. Originally posted by redguitaronfire[..]

    So you can justify violence but not a rock singer in a protocolary act. So, for you, violence is a patrotical act and Bono is an unspeakable traitor... In that case you're right, I don't know more about Ireland than you, I know more about anything than you.

    It's not enough to remember history, pal. You also gotta understand it.


    And so redguitaronfire it appears we'll be adversaries from this point on

    Violence is necessary in self-defense thats what i meant, and standing up for your people is patriotic.
    If it didn't happen in the USA, she would still be controlled by England .
    I admitted that i believe the IRA are far from perfect (The enniskillen bombing, as i'll give it to you, is a good point to bring up in IRA criticism)
    But i wouldn't let the well paid lead singer of a rock band far away from the troubles be my main source on this pal, you need to research it ,to understand where we come from on this.

    And for accepting this award, yes Bono is a traitor, and in spite of your opinion or anything you may have to say Ireland sides with me, because Ireland remembers these atrocities.
    It is not just his people today he has dissapointed, but his forefathers who died defeating the enemy he bowed down before, if thats not treachery, what is?

    (And believe me friend, i am quite confident in my understanding of Irish history. I am not some cold-blooded one-sider, i know the real history. Not just the stories in books the one's written in Journals, and books not published. The one's held deep in the heart of towns, and forests. Simply put to you buddy, i know this country, you don't and your argument is debased. )
  10. Originally posted by redguitaronfire[..]

    Well, let's take it in order of appearance:

    1. I didn't reffer those "brave" strikers, neither Catholics you mention. I was thinking in people who died in acts like the bomb in Enniskillen, the episode Bono reffers in Rattle and Hum before Sunday Bloody Sunday, when he talks about the "Glory of the Revolution". Remember that or is it too undonfortable for the patriot apology of IRA you're trying?

    2. The EU council decided that, but the USA rate the IRA as terrorists in their list of terrorist groups. So the reliability of your argument is relative.

    3. Why not grieve for the IRA fallen? I do. Will you grieve for the british soldiers that have also lost their lives in their jobs? That's my point, watch this from both angles.

    4. Israel and Palestine situation is not comparable to Ireland. It's not only the land, but also religion differences and the USA intervention because of their interest in the area. If you think is comparable, or that it can be reduced to an invasion, you don't know the world you're living in.

    5. Do you think it was easier for India than for Ireland? Do you think there were not-so-many-violence-like in your hometown? The point here is when are you gonna give a try to non-violence?



    1. No war is fair. No war is easy. And Enniskillen was wrong. And they had the candour to apoligise
    This from the BBC 1997...

    ''The Sinn Fein leader, Gerry Adams, has apologised for the Enniskillen bombing, in which the IRA killed eleven people and scores were injured on Remembrance Sunday ten years ago.

    "I hope there will be no more Enniskillen's and I am deeply sorry about what happened in Enniskillen," Mr Adams told the BBC.

    "But I think we can only have a guarantee of a peaceful future when we tackle the root causes of the conflict and when we resolve them," said the leader of Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA.

    But If you're interested in researching Ireland further you may come to see similar tradgedies that were comitted to Catholic youths an Elders.

    2. Well the USA says it doesn;t negotiate with terrorists right? Yet, both Bush and Clinton have voiced their approval of the struggle towards peace that they have been making. Clinton in particular, view this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/30/newsid_4459000/4459860.stm)

    3.I'll have you know a dear friend of mine's FATHER was a paratrooper, and i get along with him just fine. I grieve for all that have suffered, but when someone occupies your country destroys your houses, ruins you family. It's harder to forgive, even you from your distant perspective can agree on that i'm sure, forgiveness has to be earned. You need to see Bono grew up so far away from the real trouble, he sees things as an observer, not as a witness.


    4. ''Israel and Palestine situation is not comparable to Ireland. It's not only the land, but also religion differences and the USA intervention because of their interest in the area. If you think is comparable, or that it can be reduced to an invasion, you don't know the world you're living in.''

    Okay, what you have stated is so far from the truth, i find it almost laughable. There is a solidarity movement between Ireland and Palestine they can be reached at http://www.ipsc.ie/, and they can fight this corner much better than i can. The similarities if you actually open your very shut eyes, are astounding.
    American involvment with Israel, was like British involvement with Northern Unionist Paramilitaries (and this was recently proven) covering for them, sending them them weapons, even training them to kill innocent Catholics. Same with USA and Israel.

    5. Do you think it was easier for India than for Ireland? Do you think there were not-so-many-violence-like in your hometown? The point here is when are you gonna give a try to non-violence?

    I believe India was under the boot of brutal British opression for many years, equal to Ireland in many cases. And in Ireland Catholics (if you read, which i'm not quite sure you do ) have been trying to make peace for many years, and a large percentage of Unionists have not heard their plea, it was only when the huge promise of money came from England that they have ended their refusal to break bread
    (this refusal has cost hundreds upon hundreds of lives, and ruined countless all because of their ego and stubborness), has come to an end and are now sitting down with Sinn Fein who wanted to right from the very beginning.The IRA ceasefire was called in 97'. So my friend, its been non-violence for a while now, but opression still continues; all though a lot less, and now we fight through words and actions. But there was time when Catholics were treated so bad Ireland herself was going to send troops into West Belfast because England was letting her Catholic population be tormented so.

    Through my replies i am not trying to demonise you, or anybody else on here, i just believe it is important that you know the truth, not just what Bono believes from a hundred miles clear of any danger zone.

    Honestly, if you are willing enough to care about my perspective, watch Michael Collins, Wind That Shakes the Barley, or In The Name of the Father amongst a list of others.

    Know what it is to understand.



  11. Originally posted by robbie07[..]

    your right bono IS a very smart and complex guy.
    but if his ego didnt accept this award why did accept it?
    did he accept it with an ironic smile? - because this is not a subject to be smart and ironic about.
    i mean, to say its an act of treason is a bit much [sorry macfistfly], but every single person who i spoke to about his knighthood have said they have lost their respect for him.
    id like to say i havent lost my repsect for him ... but i probobly have ....



    Haha i think the treason line was too much also, but hey we listen to passionate music, and we're a firey folk eh?

  12. Originally posted by Macphistfly[..]

    Haha i think the treason line was too much also, but hey we listen to passionate music, and we're a firey folk eh?




    spot on!